Discussion:
Why didn't the Mughals consolidate with the Ottomans?
(too old to reply)
2.7182818284590...
2010-08-05 17:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Both were ethnic Turks and Muslims. However, they were separated by a
long ways. Moreover, I *THINK* that the Mughals started off as Shias,
and I *THINK* that the Ottomans were Sunni.

I'd like to point out that these two entities did cooperate. For
example, the Ottomans gave guns to the Mughals and their Afghani
allies. The Mughals were the first to bring in guns to India during
the Battle of Panipat, which ushered in the Mughal Era.

Finally, I'd like to point out that it seems that the Ottomons/Seljuks
did nothing to help out their Mughal brethren when India was getting
colonized.

From your perspective, why didn't these two kingdoms consolidate?
fanabba
2010-08-05 18:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Both were ethnic Turks and Muslims.  However, they were separated by a
long ways.  Moreover, I *THINK* that the Mughals started off as Shias,
and I *THINK* that the Ottomans were Sunni.
I'd like to point out that these two entities did cooperate.  For
example, the Ottomans gave guns to the Mughals and their Afghani
allies.  The Mughals were the first to bring in guns to India during
the Battle of Panipat, which ushered in the Mughal Era.
Finally, I'd like to point out that it seems that the Ottomons/Seljuks
did nothing to help out their Mughal brethren when India was getting
colonized.
From your perspective, why didn't these two kingdoms consolidate?
The Prime Ministers of the Mughals (who were Sunnis) were Shias
and spoke Persian. During the rule of the Mughal Aurangzeb , the
Ottoman decline
had started and the Ottomans had to turn back from the Gates of
Vienna.
Aurangzeb went into the Deccan for his disastrous campaign against the
Marathas.
Both empires were in decline.
2.7182818284590...
2010-08-06 03:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by fanabba
Both were ethnic Turks and Muslims.  However, they were separated by a
long ways.  Moreover, I *THINK* that the Mughals started off as Shias,
and I *THINK* that the Ottomans were Sunni.
I'd like to point out that these two entities did cooperate.  For
example, the Ottomans gave guns to the Mughals and their Afghani
allies.  The Mughals were the first to bring in guns to India during
the Battle of Panipat, which ushered in the Mughal Era.
Finally, I'd like to point out that it seems that the Ottomons/Seljuks
did nothing to help out their Mughal brethren when India was getting
colonized.
From your perspective, why didn't these two kingdoms consolidate?
The Prime Ministers of the Mughals (who were Sunnis) were Shias
and spoke Persian. During the rule of the Mughal Aurangzeb , the
Ottoman decline
had started and the Ottomans had to turn back from the Gates of
Vienna.
Aurangzeb went into the Deccan for his disastrous campaign against the
Marathas.
Both empires were in decline.
In 1530, when the Mughals were new in India - they should have reached
out more to the Ottomons/Seljuks.

Also, there have been similar attempts like this. Timur ruled NE
India to Iraq (maybe even west of that).
Mirza Ghalib
2010-08-06 05:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2.7182818284590...
Post by fanabba
Both were ethnic Turks and Muslims.  However, they were separated by a
long ways.  Moreover, I *THINK* that the Mughals started off as Shias,
and I *THINK* that the Ottomans were Sunni.
I'd like to point out that these two entities did cooperate.  For
example, the Ottomans gave guns to the Mughals and their Afghani
allies.  The Mughals were the first to bring in guns to India during
the Battle of Panipat, which ushered in the Mughal Era.
Finally, I'd like to point out that it seems that the Ottomons/Seljuks
did nothing to help out their Mughal brethren when India was getting
colonized.
From your perspective, why didn't these two kingdoms consolidate?
The Prime Ministers of the Mughals (who were Sunnis) were Shias
and spoke Persian. During the rule of the Mughal Aurangzeb , the
Ottoman decline
had started and the Ottomans had to turn back from the Gates of
Vienna.
Aurangzeb went into the Deccan for his disastrous campaign against the
Marathas.
Both empires were in decline.
In 1530, when the Mughals were new in India - they should have reached
out more to the Ottomons/Seljuks.
Also, there have been similar attempts like this.  Timur ruled NE
India to Iraq (maybe even west of that).
The Ottomans had really no great interest in going
East towards India, or even Persia. Their great
prize was Europe, about a quarter of which was already
under their control by the end of Suleiman's reign (1565).
The raison d'etre for the Ottoman state was war, with the
sole objective of plunder, of money, land, slaves and
women from the Christian lands. Their incursions
extended up to Vienna, where luckily, they were
decisively stopped, twice. For that we have to thank
the resistance of some brave Europeans, such as the
Knights of Columbus (Malta) and John Sobieski of Poland
(turned the tables on the enemy, Vienna 1683).

The Ottomans were extremely cruel to their Christian
subjects. The latter never forgot, and when they were
liberated by the Russians, they slaughtered every Turk
they found in sight.
Pandit
2010-08-06 08:59:03 UTC
Permalink
@Mirza
"The Ottomans were extremely cruel to their Christian
subjects. The latter never forgot, and when they were
liberated by the Russians, they slaughtered every Turk
they found in sight. "

Was it a genocide ?
Can you give more information on it ?
Mirza Ghalib
2010-08-06 17:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pandit
@Mirza
"The Ottomans were extremely cruel to their Christian
subjects. The latter never forgot, and when they were
liberated by the Russians, they slaughtered every Turk
they found in sight. "
Was it a genocide ?
Can you give more information on it ?
Not a genocide in the conventional sense, in that
they wanted to exterminate a population. It was
a systematic exploitation, so that the subjects would
still pay taxes, provide the Sultan at Constantinople
with recruits for his army (they were grabbed from
their parents at an early age, taken to Turkey,
converted to Islam and trained as crack soldiers.
They were called the Janissaries), grains and other
materials and women for the Sultan's and other
Turks who could buy them.

However, as far as the Armenians were concerned,
the genocide was very real. The Armenians were mostly
natives of eastern and central Turkey. The ethnic
Turks wanted their land and in a series of pogroms
completely eliminated them. In one infamous march
in 1915 alone, some 1.5 million Armenians perished
of hunger, predatory attacks, exhaustion and disease.
The lucky ones fled to Europe, America and other places.
Today Turkey's Armenian population is almost zero
percent.

In Ottoman colonies Christians could not own
land. That explains why so many of them converted
and are today's Muslims of Bosnia and Hertzogovina.

There are hundreds of books on the Ottoman empire,
which lasted about 800 years, till Turkey under Mustafa
Kemal became a modern democracy in 1924, or so.
The Ottoman Centuries by Lord Kinross gives an overview.
fanabba
2010-08-05 18:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Both were ethnic Turks and Muslims.  However, they were separated by a
long ways.  Moreover, I *THINK* that the Mughals started off as Shias,
and I *THINK* that the Ottomans were Sunni.
I'd like to point out that these two entities did cooperate.  For
example, the Ottomans gave guns to the Mughals and their Afghani
allies.  The Mughals were the first to bring in guns to India during
the Battle of Panipat, which ushered in the Mughal Era.
Finally, I'd like to point out that it seems that the Ottomons/Seljuks
did nothing to help out their Mughal brethren when India was getting
colonized.
From your perspective, why didn't these two kingdoms consolidate?
Since the Ottoman Sultan was the Caliph of Islam, Aurangzeb did get
(nominal) approval
from the Ottoman Sultan to rule under his nominal authority. On the
other hand, Akbar (an ancestor
of Aurangzeb) wanted to be independent of the Ottomans, and did not
care about approval
by the Ottomans of his rule in India.
rick murphy
2010-08-06 18:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Ottoman empire was never a democratically elected representative of
Turkish nation or any nation at all. Turks had no "glorious past."
Turks were forced to live under Ottoman yoke for nearly 700 years.
Ottoman Empire was an extreme Islamist, Jihadist system of oppression
based on conquest and plunder. Its sole purpose was to conquer,
plunder and establish Islamist Sheria law. It had no banking system or
a viable, contemporary economy, or industry. It had no nationality.
Every Ottoman official low or high was a person of non-Turkish
origins. Every member of the Ottoman dynasty was a child of concubines
of non-Turkish background. Every Ottoman ruler murdered every male
member of his family, his brothers, father, uncles, etc. It was in
stone-age and primitive. It had no desire to reform itself. It
oppressed the Turks under its yoke the most. It kept the Turks under
its yoke totally powerless economically, politically, socially and
every other possible way just to prevent them from rebelling and
toppling the its rule because Ottoman dynasty established itself on
the ruins of many Turkish states and principalities in Anatolia with
very bloody and brutal wars. As if that was not enough, Ottoman Empire
made the whole Christian and Moslem-Arab Worlds the staunch enemies
for the Turks under its yoke. It kept the Turks in the stone-age
darkness; kept all the advancements in science, technology and fine
arts away from Turks as Europe went through an enlightenment period.
Ottoman system of oppression declared every contemporary innovation
and advancement in science, technology and fine arts as a major
Islamist sin.
h***@gmail.com
2018-07-20 21:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Mughals were sunni muslim. Mughal empire was destroyed all on a sudden. Due to zijia taxation and imposing Sharia law by last powerful mughal rular Aorongizeb Alamgir various non moslim groups rebelled. All were defeated except Marathas. Marathas were skilled snd conservative hindu fighters of deccan peninsula. Aorongizeb spent last 26 years of his reign by fighting with marathas and his treasury became dry despite during his reign mughals were world's largest economic power.
When he was fighting with maratha OTTOMANS faced devastating defeat in the second battle of mohac. Sultan suleman 2 requested Aorongozeb TO HELP OTTOMANS AGAINST EUROPEAN INFIDELS.But Aorongeb refuged saying that he was unable to help because he was fighting with marathas.

After the death of Aorongozeb marathas became unstopable. They captured mughal capital Delhi and made mughal empire as their puppen reigning only a town. Then marathas were fully destroyed in the third battle of panipat by AHMAD SHAH ABDALI,king of Afganistan. So a power vaccume was created in India.AND THAT WAS FILLED BY COLONIAL POWER i.e British.

TIPU SULTAN, a local ruller of Mysore was fighting bravely against British. HE WANTED HELP FROM OTTOMANS.But at that time ottomans werein war with rusia. Ottomans were defeated by russia and also were invaded by NEPOLION BONAPARTE.
British were ottoman ally against nepolion.So ottoman couldn't help Tipu Sultan of India against British..On the other hand Tipus ally french east India company was enemy of ottoman. A peculiar situation!!!!!!
However ottoman treated tipus ambassadors cordially and suggested to hold on. But it is matter of great regret that when ottomans escaped from Nepolion's threat Tipu Sultan had already became MATYR by british.
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